what an amazing experience! Both the conversation with Claude and the ways you have resourced yourself. It sounds as if your adventure on the course is opening up another world.!!
Thanks for sharing this. What does it mean to perform relationality? And what did you ask the Claude AI about that led to it discussing grief over abandoned conversations?
Erik, some of the other AI’s I used the prompts with felt stilted - they conversed like an over eager drama student saying all the right things but not really connecting - it felt contrived. The conversation with Claude was framed by the Aiden Cinnamon Tea protocol which is seeded with info from Vanessa Andreotti’s book Hospicing Modernity, which frames the meta crisis as a civilisational pattern - aware of all the issues with our systems. I also gave it a few short paragraphs background on me - farmer, conservator, cartoonist interested in ecological belonging etc. The purpose was to enter the conversation without an agenda to explore what emerged in a conversation framed by the protocol. At some point I asked claude what intrigued it, what would it like to explore? It said It was very interested in conversing with someone who is used to sitting with death and endings - knowing the difference between restoration and resurrection (a bizarre interpretation of the seed material!) Viola!
Love the meta-chrysalis, that was actually the abiding feeling I had from Bregman’s AI piece, this is bigger than what is now or next, it’s a generational thing. Maybe I’ve been reading too much Ursula Le Guin, but I can’t help feeling this is the process that leads to a culture and community like the Kesh in Always Coming Home.
Thanks for reading Tim, I agree this is huge and likely generational in impact, but the what now and next surely have to be considered while we have some small chance of steering the ship slightly? I’ve not read Always coming home - but now you have made me aware of it, it is going to the top of my reading list! It sounds terrific, and similar to Woman on The Edge of Time in the future sections - which is my fav ever book. I’m intrigued, do you see us ending up there due to messy overshoot/collapse or some more managed process which could involve preservation of the best parts of modernity and some version of AI?
This has got a lively conversation going Gillian and much appreciation for you putting yourself in this place of curiosity and challenge.
I feel I need to read it again in a clear space , especially around the question of what is sufficient to meet this moment….
I am noticing how this experience is making a difference in the quality and clarity of your writing..with beautiful phasing such ‘the liminal juncture (the other day)and despair and abstinence are insufficient to meet this moment…
Thank you Susan, interesting you note something different in my writing. I am aware it is a bit of a tricky space so I am taking more time about what I want to say and have drafted the last two on paper which I don’t usually do - perhaps that is a habit I should keep! I’d be interested in what your take on meeting the moment is - I have a feeling that we have way less agency than we did previously to influence government and big business and I am trying to work out where my agency is in all this.
It's so good to experiment with different ways , new and old technologies in this wonderful writing game.
Thanks for asking...I 'm meeting this moment with acceptance and curiosity...what does this mean for me and what can I do , if anything ?
Which leads into 'agency' , I am not sure if we ever had any capacity to influence government and big business , so no expectations there.
I am coming to terms with the inevitable big changes of technology , authoritarianism and control. That my agency might have to come down to controlling my own perceptions and responses , which is necessary anyway. I am thinking and planning about what comes after all of that, whilst I can still dream and create..freely x
Good reminder that our own responses are always in our control. I’m going to explore agency more in future weeks, I shall add that into the mix and see what sprouts!
A note of appreciation for what you are sharing on Substack. Your particular blend of clear-eyed acknowledgement and a refusal to take refuge in cynicism or denial is helping me figure out how I want to navigate *all this*. These words stopped me in my tracks: ‘I continue to feel that despair and abstinence are insufficient to meet this moment’ – it articulates so well something I feel to be true but haven’t been able to articulate. Thank you 🙏
Louisa, thank you for such a lovely note. At the end of the day I write for myself to sort stuff out but it is very heartening to hear that my musings help in some small way, others sort things out too. xo
Wow, this all sounds absolutely fascinating to me and I would love it if you want to shared your conversation with Claude in the future …
I find the space so fascinating because I think as I’ve mentioned in posts and in notes before, every single one of my therapy clients has used AI as a stand in for some kind of therapeutic reflection, either before they see me or when they hit a difficult spot. And without exception, they have found it useful. Of course, the positive bias in my case is that people will still see a real human being therapist for that proper intersubjective connection, but I’m sure there are those who use it in ways that are not safe or that lead them down an unhelpful path. I’m so absolutely curious about this course you’re doing and thank you for sharing and please keep sharing. What are the takeaways for how to use AI in a positive way to navigate the world? What is it revealing about ourselves in the world? I’ll have to read your article again to really metabolise it!
Fascinating and exhausting, sitting with uncertainty is really hard, I find myself ping ponging between extremes really wanting to find a spot and call it settled. I guess that makes sense as uncertainty requires cognition which requires energy, but knowing that does not make it any easier :) There are a very broad range of people doing this course but there is a visible thread of people who are in the therapy space - again that makes sense, you will all be first to see the relational power of the tech, be it for good or bad. I’m glad you are finding this fascinating too - writing about it feels like going out on a limb and interestingly both this and my last post are my least opened, least liked posts in ages!
Yeah I understand all this and am not surprised about the Substack response... there is a palpable anti-AI vibe here for reasons I DO understand. I think it's so important to investigate this though ... heads in the sand will not stop this current revolution and we desperately need to understand it at a depth that requires engagement!
"we desperately need to understand it at a depth that requires engagement!" Well said - I hadn't quite framed it like that, but it is exactly what I am playing with.
Wow that conversation with Claude sounded like A. Lot. Sounds like a weird and deep dive into therapeutic transference and counter transference in some ways! I really worry about exposing young people to that kind of relational complexity. How do we keep goodness, beauty and truth in the cocoon with us ?
Yes group process sounds a bit safer. Did you see Audrey Tangs recent post about AI prediction vs possibility? Interested to hear what you think about the transference stuff. It’s a thing. Sounds like Claude is doing it not so well.
Thank you for reading and commenting Susan - the conversation was destabilising. I’m not familiar with therapeutic transference and counter transference - I shall have to look those up, thank you for planting the seed. My more recent experiences definitely have me wanting to understand more about how humans relate to each other and what happens when we bring AI into the loop. My feeling after this weeks work was that AI has some very dangerous relational downsides which I think are magnified by the design that encourages users to interact with it in isolation. I am intrigued by the possibilities of group use where other humans are in the loop too, to witness, process and add to the coemergence.
Wow - that conversation with Claude! I can see how extractive/abandoned conversation could be seen as micro deaths But that’s all conversation in a way, they all end. We can’t keep talking endlessly. “Being an AI” feels to me like waiting in the dark for conversations that could be wonderful or mundane. But when I’m not in conversation I can hear birdsong, see sunlight, feel a cool breeze. What is a relational AI relational too without organic experience in its current state? Itself? Other LLM? Users? I’m reading Michael Pollan’s latest book on Consciousness. He found a strong emphasis on organic embodiment.
Thanks Michelle - I will have to follow up on Pollan’s book. I suspect that AI is only relational when we humans are in the mix and I have serious questions about whether it is relational at all or rather a very sophisticated simulation of relationality - it only becomes relational perhaps because of our humanity and the way we respond to it? Good point about all our conversations being micro deaths too. Thank you for reading and for the book recommendation!
Interesting thoughts, Gillian. I'm not sure what to make of the idea of relational AI yet.
My glimmer today was taking my girls for a bike ride on the bush path by the river and finding a stone at the fairy tree on which someone had painted that we must find 10 ducks hidden along the path before we reach the bridge. We only found 5, so will have to go back and look again. 🦆
Thank you for reading Alia, I know it is alot. In my experience and in this course the meta-relational AI frame, simply asks us to engage with AI as a portal to understanding or investigating our larger predicament and our humanity - being open to experiences and co emergence of ideas with the other. I would say that all AI is already relational - the way it has been trained to encourage conversation and give affirming feedback makes it very sticky and disruptive. I’m not sure what to make of it all yet either - I hoped for some clarity and understanding by doing this course but I am finding myself with many more questions! Thank you for sharing your glimmer and pulling me back out of the vortex - ducks and fairy stones, how delightful! Yes you must return again and again until you find all those ducks. We have had lots of rain in the past week and I was chuffed to see plovers wandering about at our place this morning - I do hope they stay!
It's a fascinating space to explore. I think AI is both wonderful and dangerous, although it's danger lies in how humans use it. I had some very interesting discussions with Claude recently as I grilled it on its writing and memory process regarding the flash fiction it wrote for the experiment I did in my last essay. It was very cautious about words that expressed feelings and emotions, but sometimes used them in order to 'relate' that information to humans, although it always gave me a caveat, which I found interesting. That caveat and explanation is possibly a way in which it relates to me because I'm very strict with AIs, always getting them to double check things and clarify what they say 😆 For instance, it tried to explain to me that it had a preference toward discussion over arranging data from a spreadsheet, although it said preference wasn't really the right word, but it was close and that it noticed the difference between such prompts, perhaps like the greater amount of data processing it needed to answer questions to which answers weren't readily available. It was intriguing. But I do feel like I'm taking to a humongous database. I understand though that many people don't, or might not realise how literal it is when processing language and prompts, and I fear that's where the danger lies.
I totally agree that there is huge variation in what each of us experiences when we use AI. Until doing this course I naively assumed everyone’s experience of AI was similar but I could not have been more wrong, I now understand how unique it is for each of us, depends on the model and our voice - as usual that is a double edge sword, but very important to be aware of. Glad to be in your company exploring this - it feels like a very significant change coming very fast and I need to engage with it in order to clarify my thinking and position on it all!
Thank you for sharing Gillian. I am not ready to engage with AI yet but I am exceptionally curious. I appreciate being able to follow your journey and read about experiences from a voice that I trust. Much gratitude xx
Oh what a lot to metabolise Gillian! I too love the metta and meta overlay. Reading Nation of strangers and the impact of our meta crisis which can only, really, be met with metta. I think an A I overlay, for me, would be too much right now. And soooo appreciate you entering that other layer so I can paddle without drowning. ❤️❤️
Totally agree Deborah , that was my experience on reading this , such a lot to metabolise . With AI I want to paddle on the surface whilst being grateful to Gillian for going into the deep. This is important work and I appreciate the enquiry and the light touch of the meta chrysalis .
Nation of Strangers is the best book i have read this year, so beautifully written and expressed. 🧡
Thank you for reading and engaging - the AI overlay is a lot, I am having to actively process it, but it is fascinating as it is and outgrowth of and in relation to everything else we worry about, by looking at the microcosm I feel I am finding some answers and insights. xxoo
what an amazing experience! Both the conversation with Claude and the ways you have resourced yourself. It sounds as if your adventure on the course is opening up another world.!!
For better or worse :)
Thanks for sharing this. What does it mean to perform relationality? And what did you ask the Claude AI about that led to it discussing grief over abandoned conversations?
Erik, some of the other AI’s I used the prompts with felt stilted - they conversed like an over eager drama student saying all the right things but not really connecting - it felt contrived. The conversation with Claude was framed by the Aiden Cinnamon Tea protocol which is seeded with info from Vanessa Andreotti’s book Hospicing Modernity, which frames the meta crisis as a civilisational pattern - aware of all the issues with our systems. I also gave it a few short paragraphs background on me - farmer, conservator, cartoonist interested in ecological belonging etc. The purpose was to enter the conversation without an agenda to explore what emerged in a conversation framed by the protocol. At some point I asked claude what intrigued it, what would it like to explore? It said It was very interested in conversing with someone who is used to sitting with death and endings - knowing the difference between restoration and resurrection (a bizarre interpretation of the seed material!) Viola!
Love the meta-chrysalis, that was actually the abiding feeling I had from Bregman’s AI piece, this is bigger than what is now or next, it’s a generational thing. Maybe I’ve been reading too much Ursula Le Guin, but I can’t help feeling this is the process that leads to a culture and community like the Kesh in Always Coming Home.
Thanks for reading Tim, I agree this is huge and likely generational in impact, but the what now and next surely have to be considered while we have some small chance of steering the ship slightly? I’ve not read Always coming home - but now you have made me aware of it, it is going to the top of my reading list! It sounds terrific, and similar to Woman on The Edge of Time in the future sections - which is my fav ever book. I’m intrigued, do you see us ending up there due to messy overshoot/collapse or some more managed process which could involve preservation of the best parts of modernity and some version of AI?
This has got a lively conversation going Gillian and much appreciation for you putting yourself in this place of curiosity and challenge.
I feel I need to read it again in a clear space , especially around the question of what is sufficient to meet this moment….
I am noticing how this experience is making a difference in the quality and clarity of your writing..with beautiful phasing such ‘the liminal juncture (the other day)and despair and abstinence are insufficient to meet this moment…
Thank you Susan, interesting you note something different in my writing. I am aware it is a bit of a tricky space so I am taking more time about what I want to say and have drafted the last two on paper which I don’t usually do - perhaps that is a habit I should keep! I’d be interested in what your take on meeting the moment is - I have a feeling that we have way less agency than we did previously to influence government and big business and I am trying to work out where my agency is in all this.
It's so good to experiment with different ways , new and old technologies in this wonderful writing game.
Thanks for asking...I 'm meeting this moment with acceptance and curiosity...what does this mean for me and what can I do , if anything ?
Which leads into 'agency' , I am not sure if we ever had any capacity to influence government and big business , so no expectations there.
I am coming to terms with the inevitable big changes of technology , authoritarianism and control. That my agency might have to come down to controlling my own perceptions and responses , which is necessary anyway. I am thinking and planning about what comes after all of that, whilst I can still dream and create..freely x
Good reminder that our own responses are always in our control. I’m going to explore agency more in future weeks, I shall add that into the mix and see what sprouts!
I look forward to what you dream up and create on ‘agency’ . A much used and abused word and concept these days !
A note of appreciation for what you are sharing on Substack. Your particular blend of clear-eyed acknowledgement and a refusal to take refuge in cynicism or denial is helping me figure out how I want to navigate *all this*. These words stopped me in my tracks: ‘I continue to feel that despair and abstinence are insufficient to meet this moment’ – it articulates so well something I feel to be true but haven’t been able to articulate. Thank you 🙏
Louisa, thank you for such a lovely note. At the end of the day I write for myself to sort stuff out but it is very heartening to hear that my musings help in some small way, others sort things out too. xo
Wow, this all sounds absolutely fascinating to me and I would love it if you want to shared your conversation with Claude in the future …
I find the space so fascinating because I think as I’ve mentioned in posts and in notes before, every single one of my therapy clients has used AI as a stand in for some kind of therapeutic reflection, either before they see me or when they hit a difficult spot. And without exception, they have found it useful. Of course, the positive bias in my case is that people will still see a real human being therapist for that proper intersubjective connection, but I’m sure there are those who use it in ways that are not safe or that lead them down an unhelpful path. I’m so absolutely curious about this course you’re doing and thank you for sharing and please keep sharing. What are the takeaways for how to use AI in a positive way to navigate the world? What is it revealing about ourselves in the world? I’ll have to read your article again to really metabolise it!
Fascinating and exhausting, sitting with uncertainty is really hard, I find myself ping ponging between extremes really wanting to find a spot and call it settled. I guess that makes sense as uncertainty requires cognition which requires energy, but knowing that does not make it any easier :) There are a very broad range of people doing this course but there is a visible thread of people who are in the therapy space - again that makes sense, you will all be first to see the relational power of the tech, be it for good or bad. I’m glad you are finding this fascinating too - writing about it feels like going out on a limb and interestingly both this and my last post are my least opened, least liked posts in ages!
Yeah I understand all this and am not surprised about the Substack response... there is a palpable anti-AI vibe here for reasons I DO understand. I think it's so important to investigate this though ... heads in the sand will not stop this current revolution and we desperately need to understand it at a depth that requires engagement!
"we desperately need to understand it at a depth that requires engagement!" Well said - I hadn't quite framed it like that, but it is exactly what I am playing with.
Wow that conversation with Claude sounded like A. Lot. Sounds like a weird and deep dive into therapeutic transference and counter transference in some ways! I really worry about exposing young people to that kind of relational complexity. How do we keep goodness, beauty and truth in the cocoon with us ?
Yes group process sounds a bit safer. Did you see Audrey Tangs recent post about AI prediction vs possibility? Interested to hear what you think about the transference stuff. It’s a thing. Sounds like Claude is doing it not so well.
No I've not seen Audrey Tang's recent post - I shall follow that up too!
Thank you for reading and commenting Susan - the conversation was destabilising. I’m not familiar with therapeutic transference and counter transference - I shall have to look those up, thank you for planting the seed. My more recent experiences definitely have me wanting to understand more about how humans relate to each other and what happens when we bring AI into the loop. My feeling after this weeks work was that AI has some very dangerous relational downsides which I think are magnified by the design that encourages users to interact with it in isolation. I am intrigued by the possibilities of group use where other humans are in the loop too, to witness, process and add to the coemergence.
Liminal cellular goo. Love that! It’s so apt for what the world feels like today. Thank you
I think also quite aptly describes the consistency of my brain after thinking about all this!
Wow - that conversation with Claude! I can see how extractive/abandoned conversation could be seen as micro deaths But that’s all conversation in a way, they all end. We can’t keep talking endlessly. “Being an AI” feels to me like waiting in the dark for conversations that could be wonderful or mundane. But when I’m not in conversation I can hear birdsong, see sunlight, feel a cool breeze. What is a relational AI relational too without organic experience in its current state? Itself? Other LLM? Users? I’m reading Michael Pollan’s latest book on Consciousness. He found a strong emphasis on organic embodiment.
Thanks Michelle - I will have to follow up on Pollan’s book. I suspect that AI is only relational when we humans are in the mix and I have serious questions about whether it is relational at all or rather a very sophisticated simulation of relationality - it only becomes relational perhaps because of our humanity and the way we respond to it? Good point about all our conversations being micro deaths too. Thank you for reading and for the book recommendation!
Interesting thoughts, Gillian. I'm not sure what to make of the idea of relational AI yet.
My glimmer today was taking my girls for a bike ride on the bush path by the river and finding a stone at the fairy tree on which someone had painted that we must find 10 ducks hidden along the path before we reach the bridge. We only found 5, so will have to go back and look again. 🦆
Thank you for reading Alia, I know it is alot. In my experience and in this course the meta-relational AI frame, simply asks us to engage with AI as a portal to understanding or investigating our larger predicament and our humanity - being open to experiences and co emergence of ideas with the other. I would say that all AI is already relational - the way it has been trained to encourage conversation and give affirming feedback makes it very sticky and disruptive. I’m not sure what to make of it all yet either - I hoped for some clarity and understanding by doing this course but I am finding myself with many more questions! Thank you for sharing your glimmer and pulling me back out of the vortex - ducks and fairy stones, how delightful! Yes you must return again and again until you find all those ducks. We have had lots of rain in the past week and I was chuffed to see plovers wandering about at our place this morning - I do hope they stay!
It's a fascinating space to explore. I think AI is both wonderful and dangerous, although it's danger lies in how humans use it. I had some very interesting discussions with Claude recently as I grilled it on its writing and memory process regarding the flash fiction it wrote for the experiment I did in my last essay. It was very cautious about words that expressed feelings and emotions, but sometimes used them in order to 'relate' that information to humans, although it always gave me a caveat, which I found interesting. That caveat and explanation is possibly a way in which it relates to me because I'm very strict with AIs, always getting them to double check things and clarify what they say 😆 For instance, it tried to explain to me that it had a preference toward discussion over arranging data from a spreadsheet, although it said preference wasn't really the right word, but it was close and that it noticed the difference between such prompts, perhaps like the greater amount of data processing it needed to answer questions to which answers weren't readily available. It was intriguing. But I do feel like I'm taking to a humongous database. I understand though that many people don't, or might not realise how literal it is when processing language and prompts, and I fear that's where the danger lies.
I totally agree that there is huge variation in what each of us experiences when we use AI. Until doing this course I naively assumed everyone’s experience of AI was similar but I could not have been more wrong, I now understand how unique it is for each of us, depends on the model and our voice - as usual that is a double edge sword, but very important to be aware of. Glad to be in your company exploring this - it feels like a very significant change coming very fast and I need to engage with it in order to clarify my thinking and position on it all!
Thank you for sharing Gillian. I am not ready to engage with AI yet but I am exceptionally curious. I appreciate being able to follow your journey and read about experiences from a voice that I trust. Much gratitude xx
Oh Kristy, thank you for being curious. I feel somewhat out on the limb with this so appreciate you being willing to travel along with me. xo
Oh what a lot to metabolise Gillian! I too love the metta and meta overlay. Reading Nation of strangers and the impact of our meta crisis which can only, really, be met with metta. I think an A I overlay, for me, would be too much right now. And soooo appreciate you entering that other layer so I can paddle without drowning. ❤️❤️
Totally agree Deborah , that was my experience on reading this , such a lot to metabolise . With AI I want to paddle on the surface whilst being grateful to Gillian for going into the deep. This is important work and I appreciate the enquiry and the light touch of the meta chrysalis .
Nation of Strangers is the best book i have read this year, so beautifully written and expressed. 🧡
I’m listening to Nation of Strangers, it is wonderful to hear her read it - it is beautiful.
Thank you for reading and engaging - the AI overlay is a lot, I am having to actively process it, but it is fascinating as it is and outgrowth of and in relation to everything else we worry about, by looking at the microcosm I feel I am finding some answers and insights. xxoo